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Ryan, Ryan, Ryan. I’m not even sure how to start this post. I guess we’ll start with Ryan’s article over at SmarterWealth.net. I’m baffled, and not sure where to begin, so I guess we’ll start by picking his article apart, one point at a time.
So basically, Ryan says that Site Flipping sucks, which is cool, but his reasons are more than a little puzzling. I’m glad Ryan thinks it sucks, and personally, I wish all of you would write a similar post. The more people that are turned off from doing this, the more money the rest of us make that are good at it. I’ve got a few readers here that are already starting to make great money flipping sites, and I’m sure they’ll love all the bad press in the world about site flipping, I know I would. Alright, let’s see why Ryan thinks Site Flipping sucks. All of the points are direct quotes from his blog.
1. No Genuine Connections
I’m sure that some of the readers of this blog would disagree. I spend a lot of time outside of this blog talking to people that I met here, or on previous projects. I guess he means you don’t make any connections on the blogs that you sell, which is ok by me, that’s why I have a flagship blog. Besides, I tend to focus on niches, so I’m not sure I’d be connecting with old ladies that enjoy my knitting blog.
2. Doesn’t Build
This is the only valid point he made during the entire blog post. He’s basically saying that blogs build incrementally and that you are selling yourself short by selling them instead of building them. However, the internet is a here today, gone tomorrow type of world. Get while the gettins good! MMO blogs are popular now, but obviously a saturated niche. How much more MMO talk can the blogosphere stand before it implodes and swallows all these noobs that have never made any cash, but want an MMO blog? It’s the same for every other niche, just because your blog is growing now, doesn’t mean that it’s gonna keep growing. Age doesn’t equal dollars in the blogging world. I’ve seen established blogs that are 3-4 years old that go for less than my 30 day flips. It happens all the time. Niches die, people move on to other things. I guess nobody else noticed that you tend to get waves of commenters that stick around a couple of months before you are overwhelmed with new faces eager to fill their spots. It’s a fickle market, so the whole “selling yourself short, you should be building” argument doesn’t hold water with me. Besides, I’m an internet marketer, not just a site flipper. I never recommend putting all your eggs in one basket, and that’s why I have blogs that I’m building for the long term as well as the flips. You should do the same.
3. Market Is Overcrowded
Is that why I have a 90%+ rate of getting the buy-it-now price on my auctions within 24 hours? Can’t be that saturated. Plus, site flipping is in it’s infancy. It hasn’t come close to market saturation. I NEVER struggle to sell a site, so that tells me that the marketplace is just fine. Maybe our buddy Ryan had a crappy experience or two, eh? You are going to see explosive growth in this industry in the next few years. Every investment platform is going down the craphole, yet websites are only getting more expensive, trust me, people aren’t blind to that fact. Want to argue that point? How else could I sell 5 sites in 24 hours for $1,600? These were brand new sites mind you!
4. No Recurring Income
I guess I should quit counting the $3,000+ in recurring commissions I make monthly then. Most of which came on affiliate sales from blogs that I was getting ready to flip, or for recommending a hosting account for the new buyer, and using my affiliate link. Plus, I’m starting to make some pretty good recurring income by selling hosting space on my reseller account to people that purchase my blogs. It’s convenient, nothing has to be moved and people eat that stuff up.
5. I Don’t Enjoy It
Finally, the truth comes out. Ryan doesn’t enjoy it. It’s not for everyone Ryan, and obviously it’s not for you. But that’s not to say that others can’t make great money in this industry. You could have ended the post by saying you don’t enjoy it, and left all the other stuff out.
I guess I should probably tell you now, I have no ill-will against Ryan, and this isn’t an angry post. It’s just meant to debunk the crap that’s floating around by novice site flippers, who gave it a try and failed miserably, only to blame the technique. I suck at PPC, does that mean that it’s not an effective way to make money? No way. I know guys making 70k a month just using PPC ads and affiliate programs. So, just because I suck at it, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t work.
I guess the true reason I wrote this post is that I’m tired of the people that want to state that a method is crap, or that it sucks, when in reality, it’s you. People don’t make money because they don’t have the adversity to stick it out when times are rough. Neal is my favorite example. He put a ton of work into his first blog flip, only to make $100. Did he give up? Nope, he hit the ground running. Now he’s becoming quite the site flipper. That’s what sets people like Neal apart from the people that will never make a living online. Neal handled adversity, and moved on to make quite a bit of cash by moving forward, rather than writing a post about how bad site flipping sucks.
Ryan, that’s not the way to make money online. If you want to get to the point of making a full-time living at home, you’re gonna have to keep plugging away at things, even if you crash and burn the first few times out. Think twice next time before saying something sucks. Is it really the “something” that sucks, or is it the fact that you couldn’t do it?
I lost $1,300 on my first site flip, if I had given up then, I would still be living in a crummy apartment grinding it out at a 9 to 5 for a paycheck. I guess my $163,429.11 in site flipping income over the past 12 months isn’t enough to prove to some people that the method isn’t broken. Keep plugging away Ryan, don’t be so quick to give up on things.
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:04 am
Ryan sounds liek a douche. I guess we should expect this from someone that obviously doesn’t make much online. For god sakes, he still runs Adsense ads on an MMO blog. We ALL know that doesn’t work.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 11:08 am
Ryan’s not a douche. He’s a cool guy. He’s just misinformed!
And yeah, Adsense sucks bad on MMO blogs. I’d be amazed if he made more than $20-$30 a month from Adsense on that blog. The MMO niche or blogging niche is way to savvy to click Adsense ads anymore. For niche blogs, Adsense still works though. Blogs like Ryan’s, not so much. That’s why I don’t use it here. It takes up space and that space is better served with affiliate ads, or direct advertisers.
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Ryan McLean reply on September 24th, 2008:
Bryan,
Thanks for posting a reply. I love the interest this has stirred up within everyone. I love that some people are so passionate that they get angry at me. Hey it is just my opinion, not saying it is the be all and end all.
I am not so stubborn that I cannot be proved wrong and I believe on a lot of points I was proved wrong and I am ok with that. Live and learn.
Adsense on my site is temporary to fill the holes which haven’t been taken up by private advertising and because I haven’t found an affiliate I have really liked yet (haven’t really looked either).
I really do appreciate this post and thanks for your reply. I am actually quite proud to be the one to stick my neck out and question “Does site flipping suck?”…however if I wrote a less direct post it never would have gotten the attention it did.
Anyway I will keep reading on site flipping but for the moment I am trying a few other ways to make money online
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September 23rd, 2008 at 11:27 am
Advantage, Clark! That was a bit of a lashing, but well deserved and well proven.
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Bryan Clark reply on September 24th, 2008:
Point. Set. Match!
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Ryan McLean reply on September 24th, 2008:
I would actually like to play a game of tennis one day with you…that would be interesting (I am not very good)…
Never taking you on again in site flipping though. I don’t fancy another slaughter ;-(
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September 23rd, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Ryan seems stuck between wanting to be a cat blogger and an entrepreneur. Like a lot of unsuccessful people running MMO blogs plastered with ads for crappy products and a donate button, he strikes me as another chump looking for a magic pill or a secret system for fast, easy money. I hope he makes it on his terms, but people who give up easily or blame everything but themselves rarely do.
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Bryan Clark reply on September 24th, 2008:
I think Ryan is a great guy, and I hope he doesn’t fall into this trap. But you are correct, too many bloggers are looking for that magic bullet that’s going to make them a success. The truth is, the only thing laziness breeds is more laziness.
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Ryan McLean reply on September 24th, 2008:
I am definately not looking for the ‘magic pill’. I am honest on my site about how I am a budding entrepreneur and I don’t try to fake it to make it. I have been blogging for 1 and a half years and I love doing it. So I am not looking for a secret system or anything…I am not lazy and I work hard to write a post everyday on my blog and to promote it
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September 23rd, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Firstly, I hope this does not turn into a Ryan bashing post. He is a good, hard working guy but fell into the trap (as many do) of taking the easy way out and making excuses.
As this post mentions, a huge part of making money online is the ability to roll with the punches. You need to learn, you need to make mistakes and you sure as hell need to persevere! I cannot tell you how pissed I was when my first site made just $100! It was devastating to have out all that effort in and got such a little amount back. If I added up time spent on return for that site I was looking at about $2 per hour. Not anywhere near my going rate.
The $100 aside, what I took from that first flip was knowledge, a whole lot of hands on experience and the proof that, if I sharpened my act up, making money flipping was indeed possible. I took the $100 and invested it into more domains to flip and made $1237 last month(my 2nd full month doing this). Taking what I learn from each one I can see real progression and I get quicker…and better with each site. I have even bought my $100 site back for $150 so I can see to unfinished business!
Thanks for the mention Bryan - it’s good to be an example of any sort, let alone a favourite one!
Keep up the good work!
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Bryan Clark reply on September 24th, 2008:
Nobody is bashing Ryan, he’s an alright guy in my book. Just my response to his post, and wanted to see what kind of discussion we could get going about it.
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Ryan McLean reply on September 24th, 2008:
I am glad I am not getting bashed. And I am respectful of what everyone is saying. I have learnt a lot from this experience and now know that maybe if I learnt more and gave it another go I could make more. But I guess the point that I don’t enjoy it means I will probably never do that.
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September 23rd, 2008 at 5:27 pm
@Bryan, nice reply man. I said some of the same in a comment on the post. I’m the same as you (get a little frustrated seeing people “misguiding” other newbies/readers).
You’re right on point with the Neal example and simply sticking with it. man, I think I lost $250 the first week I ever tried adwords. I knew it was because “I sucked”, not because “Adwords sucks”. lol
@Nota Bene: I don’t think anyone’s bashing him. Make no mistake though, he wrote that title because he wants a response, so I felt obligated to give him one! I see Bryan did too
It’s just opinions and blog posts, nothing against Ryan. I’ll be the first to stick up for the kid. I like him.
Cheers!
Jay
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Bryan Clark reply on September 24th, 2008:
Thanks Jay!
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Ryan McLean reply on September 24th, 2008:
Jay that was the longest comment I have ever seen in my life. You should have written a post about it…but thanks for the comment and I really appreciate it and I love your site also (and I regularly comment as you will know).
and thanks for sticking up for me
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SuiteJ reply on September 24th, 2008:
NP! The way I saw it, you basically asked for my response by commenting that your “website flipping sucks” post was coming soon (on my blog’s “website flipping” post!)
LOL@ sticking up for you. Of course! I like “The Kid”. It’s all internet marketing man.
I admire you’re tactics. I see the obvious linkbait (the title was perfect!), but I’m willing to play along. Ultimately, I couldn’t care less who dislikes website flipping. lol
Cheers to both you guys for a couple great posts.
Jay
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Ryan McLean reply on September 24th, 2008:
Truthfully I didn’t do it for link baiting. I got so sick of every MMO blog that I went to talking about site flipping that I lashed out. The stir it caused was just an added bonus
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Many reasons that makes money online and maintaining genuine is must.You may have heard several people talking about the “best online money making tool’s that can make you the champion of online money making. I do not feel that these tools can make you king or queen unless you put some effort there. There are some online money making tools that you should have in order to succeed in your business.
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Bryan Clark reply on September 24th, 2008:
I’m confused!
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Ryan McLean reply on September 24th, 2008:
me too ???
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September 23rd, 2008 at 11:39 pm
There are loads of ways to make money online, and site flipping is but one. And some people are good at it, and some people aren’t/
For example, recently i wasn’t able to sell an image host site of mine, but did i go around whining about it, or claim that site flipping doesnt work. No, i fessed up that the site is a challenging site to sell. In all honesty i dont think it is not sellable, i think it is. But it isn’t ready, yet.
I NEVER give up. I will prevail selling it. LoL.
Anywho, interesting discussion.
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Bryan Clark reply on September 24th, 2008:
That’s what we admire about you Missy. Don’t give up, it’s just a crappy niche to sell a site in. Give one of your other ones a try and you’ll do great!
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September 23rd, 2008 at 11:40 pm
Oops! I forgot to mention kudos @Neal. Jeez, can you tell i’m spending way too much time on @Twitter.
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September 24th, 2008 at 12:03 am
I am in neither Neal or Ryan’s spot…. I had 2 fairly nice flips, and one amazing flip…. No one thought that link building bible would go for what it went for (right Jay?)… it wasn’t quite a flip, but it was what a strong site CAN go for.
I really wanted to comment on Ryan’s #1 issue with Site flipping…. the connections…. He’s right, in the long run, money will burn…. But most of the connections I made through link building bible are gone…. save a handful… because i am no longer with the site. Site’s die all of the time… when Ryan gets a job, or goes to college, or ______________ his site may die and those connections will die. By creating something that is direct income, as well as having stuff that is passive income (as Bryan has set up his finances…) it enabled Bryan to work only a few hours a day, FREEING HIM TO MAKE MAKE REAL CONNECTIONS WITH REAL PEOPLE WHO HE CAN HAVE REAL FRIENDSHIPS WITH… No offense to Jay, Bryan, the other Ryan, Paul, Justin, Sly, etc….. ya’ll are cool, and I love talking to you online, and I may even wanna meet ya’ll for coffee if we’re in town, but none of them will replace or mean as much to me as my friends here, or as my relationship with my wife. THOSE are the connections I want to make… online contacts are awesome, and I love picking Bryan and Jay’s brains…. but they mean nothing to me when compared to my real friends… and if I only had to work 2-3 hours a day like Bryan, that’d free me up way more to make those connections better (but hey Bryan, if you want to fly to sacramento and to kick it, I’m all for it!)
And Neal…. I know you don’t want this to be a bash ryan post… but the guy’s a moron, and a typical MMO writer…. always running for what someone says is the latest craze, trys it, doesnt work for him, and he moves to the next thing the next guru says….. Case in point… his newest article is the one Bryan mentioned, “Why website flipping sucks” yet about an inch to the right, if you just sign up for his mailing list, You can “Get a FREE Copy of My Ebook ‘Flipping Websites for Profit’ Simply By Signing Up for My Newsletter Below!”… he’s ridiculous.
About the oversaturation… some mentioned it….. it’s saturated with crappy sites…. but Link building bible hit it’s high BIN within 24 hours…. one of my niche sites hit it’s BIN in like 8 hours…. If you try to sell crappy sites, u may not be able to sell, or you may not make what you can for the site. I had a buddy who needed cash, made $280ish in 6 weeks with a site on autopilot, and only got $400 for it (his reserve was 700 but he sold anyway cuz he needed cash)…. but his theme was hideous…. no one wanted it because it looked horrible… if i had the extra cash on hand, i woulda paid $400 for it, to flip it for $1000+ after a theme change…. (2x monthly was pathetic… but he didnt wanna change a theme and relist)
Ryan needs to take his own advice that he wrote on his newest post about walls that internet marketers hit…especially newbs…. 1. Be prepared 2. Push harder 3. keep going 4. Do something different and 5. Do something huge…. dude needs to apply those techniques to blog flipping, then maybe he’ll have a better ebook to write and give away (or sell for the almight passive income)
…. was too tired to post on Ryan’s blog, but I am glad Bryan responded, it energized me…
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Bryan Clark reply on September 24th, 2008:
Should have sent that comment over, could have used it as a guest post
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Ryan McLean reply on September 24th, 2008:
Thanks for this reply. So long that I don’t know what to say…
My favourite was how you wrote about the connections with your people back home. That is really important to me also and why I am working online so I can earn that sort of money
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September 24th, 2008 at 3:02 am
@ Breakaway: LOL…well if you put it like that! I did see the free ebook too. Nuff said on that I think Awesome comment, I could not agree more.
Oh, and your competition site is looking good.
@ Missy: Thanks for the kudos! Does too much time on twitter mean not enough time on the competition site? Good luck selling your site…I hope you do soon as I’m sick of hearing about it jk
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Bryan Clark reply on September 24th, 2008:
How are you guys doing on the competition site btw? Hopefully you can make some cash out of it. Sorry I couldn’t be of more assistance!
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Luis Gross reply on September 25th, 2008:
Hey there Neal!
Whatever happened to you?
I replied to your email and got no response back!
That was weeks ago.
Hmm, fishy.
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September 24th, 2008 at 4:06 am
I have been selling websites on and off for over 6 years. I have never had an unsuccessful sale. I have never sold a website for under $400. My average sale price is $1,200. ALL my sites are brand new and unestablished.
One thing new website flippers do not understand is that aesthetics and presentation matter more than anything when it comes to flipping. Ugly websites that run on lame script DO NOT sell. If you want to make a quick pathetic $50.00, go for it. But if you want to make real cash from flipping a website, you need to think from a buyer’s point of view.
Why should a buyer be interested in a site that offers absolutely no value. For you newbies, here are some tips on creating value so your website will sell:
1. Make it LOOK GOOD!
2. Lose the absurd proxy scripts, photo upload scripts, video website scripts, etc. You get the idea… Originality is important.
3. If you are serious about selling, DO NOT USE A .INFO DOMAIN NAME. If you are too cheap to buy a .COM, you need to find another way to make money online.
4. If you want to sell a site with no traffic, make sure EVERYTHING is picture-perfect on it. This includes flawless well-written unique content and a stunning design.
5. Help the potential buyers understand what they are buying and what the site will do for them. Most people know they want a site but can not spot a good site.
6. Make your sales copy honest and vivid. Writing 6 pathetic lines about how the site will make millions is retarded.
For some people, website flipping is a job. Once you cross the line from pathetic $10.00 sites to $500.00 sites, you are making some major progress.
To flip sites successfully, at the minimum, you need the following skills:
1. Web design
2. Graphic design
3. Copywriting
4. Sales
5. SEO
6. Basic PHP Programming
Site flipping is NOT rocket science. Fortunately for us flippers, a number of people get annoyed and give up fast. This leaves less competition for us.
When it comes to competition, you are in one of 3 levels.
Level 3 is the crappy and pathetically desperate sellers who can not get more than $50 for a site.
Level 2 is the average quality sellers who think they are hotshots but they are pretty much as retarded as the Level 3 sellers. They are at level 2 because they make over $100 on a flip.
Level 1 sellers are in a league of their own. They could care less about any other seller out there. They are 100% confident that each and every site they list will sell.
YOU WANT TO BE AT LEVEL 1.
Alright boys and girls - this was fun. Hope you learned something new. Good luck flipping.
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Bryan Clark reply on September 24th, 2008:
Great reply. Really fantastic addition to this conversation. I just hope I can move up from level 3 to level 2 pretty soon…
All joking aside, I agree completely.
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September 24th, 2008 at 10:37 am
this post brought up a lot of questions for me
see your email and sorry ahead of time lol
–korr
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September 24th, 2008 at 11:17 am
Great post man. Some great comments in here too! I have nothing to add, everyone summed it up, from Nota, to Jay, to Josh, along with the post itself. This is the real deal, and I know dudes making money from it.
As missy said, it’s a way to make money online, not THE way. Just one of the many ways to succeed. Now, when Bryan drops his course, I’ll finally have a blue print to follow ( not that the blueprint isn’t laid out in this blog in basic format lol) but, you get the point.
keep it up fellas, I may join the ranks at some point.
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September 24th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
I’m mentioning this for the irony and irony only(Big fan of humor) Ryan wasn’t the first one to comment on this post…For ones not yet familiar with Ryan HEhis the first to post on like 37 different blogs for every article. I even believe a few on here….Just that it was funny
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Ryan McLean reply on September 24th, 2008:
I am not always first…though I like to be. But I always love to comment on blogs because I love reading and writing. The interaction is fun and the traffic back to my site is great too.
Haha I love the reputation I am getting for being a commentor
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September 24th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
I’d just thought I’d post my comment here as well as SmarterWealth.net as it has not been moderated yet.
I really don’t agree with this post, and I see great irony in the promotion of your “Website Flipping” even though, you don’t like it?
I’ve flipped blogs before, personally one to “Bryan Clark” of siteflipu and I’ve made a tidy little profit on a blog that I worked on for 2 months.
Be it known that I lost a large amount of money as the pagerank increased, I didn’t know the rules and I learned the hard way but at the end of the day, I made money from something that I did not invest any money in to apart from the hosting costs.
The whole genuine connections argument I do not believe exists. Yes you have SmarterWealth for your main blog, but what’s hard about building the connections for this blog? Even whilst you’re working on one of your niche blogs. Just say for example you had a tree blog, I don’t believe that reader base would migrate to this one in the MMO niche so I believe building up seperate reader bases is an advantage and at the end of the day not having genuine connections on certain blogs is certainly where $$ can be made when you’re raking in the cash from affiliate offers.
No recurring income? I’ve flipped blogs and websites whenever I’ve liked on forums and sitepoint over and over and when I wish to place them on a site. If you’re listing good blogs and you know what you’re doing, you will make money simple as that. If you don’t have substantial about of blogs to flip or small websites, then you will have big gaps in between the websites you sell and that is indeed not recurring income. You have to work hard to promote the websites and sell them off one by one when you can.
The Market is definitely not overcrowded. How many websites are there online? I think that answers that statement. People need information and if your website gives it, then you can sell the website.
Site flipping is about the money to the site creator and at the end of the day they may not be fussed about building the blog for the readers or making it personal, that’s the cold hard truth. They keep the teaching to their personal blogs and make a huge amount of bucks with site flipping.
Anyway if you’re not site flipping anymore, best take down your free eBook because it doesn’t work according to you
Just my 2 cents,
Best wishes.
Don’t get me wrong I respect opinions of entrepreneurs but knowing how to do things properly has a big difference in how successful you are. Saying that website flipping sucks simply means you haven’t done it right.
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Bryan Clark reply on September 24th, 2008:
Hey Carl, good to see you!
Let me tell the story about the blog I bought from Carl, just to give you an idea of how profitable blog flipping can be.
I found Carl’s blog on Sitepoint, and it had some great content, about 80 RSS subscribers, and about 2,000 backlinks. He had a BIN price of $250 (I think that was it), so I scooped it up immediately. 3 days later, it reached a PR4 and I sold it immediately for $1,500.
It was a bad break for Carl, and a lucky break for me. But this stuff happens, and when you do your homework before purchasing, it usually happens in your favor!
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September 25th, 2008 at 1:40 am
Ouch!
Spotlights aren’t always good, depending on the situation.
I haven’t read Ryan’s post, but I’m going to now.
I wrote a post last week called, “Why some people will never be successful”
It explains what you’re saying. How some people just give up, because they suck at it. I’m not saying Ryan falls under that category, however.
But I do see your point.
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October 4th, 2008 at 12:35 am
Wow. I just got here. I do a little site flipping. Always looking for more active sites like this. Good postings. Flippers tend to be a bunch that have ideas from every walk of life. Glad to be here.
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October 7th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Ok…. a plan… lock this site down and we can all go on a rampage about how site flipping has died….. kill the idea in any newbies head and then we can reap the rewards :)….. Bryan if only you hadn’t started this blueprint, I know you would be in on this :):):)
I’m looking forward to trying my first sale this week…. wish me luck
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October 7th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
This post has stirred up quite a lot of interest.
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November 12th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
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